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tv   Larry King Live  CNN  June 17, 2010 9:00pm-10:00pm EDT

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should take more time to discuss a oil spill than it does to get your oiled checked. >> you wonder how the meeting begins, obama saying, nice to meet you, tony. thank you for wrecking my presidency. you want a water or something? >> that's it for us. have a good night, everybody. "larry king live" starts right now. >> larry: tonight, bp's top man is raked over the coals by congress. he is denying, he's disputing and he's defending the company responsible for an environmental catastrophe. >> i had no prior knowledge. i'm not an oceanographic scientist. i am not able to. there is no evidence of reckless behavior. >> yes or no? >> no so far. >> i'm going to take it as a continuing no from you. >> larry: but will roughing him up do the gulf any good? then a condemned killer, hours
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before being executed by firing squad, utah wants him to die. some of his victims' loved ones don't. time is running out for ronnie lee gardner. will a last minute reprieve spare the life. next from the prison next. on "larry king live"! >> larry: good evening. you just saw a sample of what went down in washington today. here to talk about it, ben stein, the economist and actor, best-selling author of "little book of bulletproof investing." our old friend stephany miller, progressive talk radio host of her own program. websi website, stephanymiller.com. mark lemont hill, a professor, contributor to theroop.com. and dana bash, organizer with the nationwide tea party
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coalition, and talk show host of the dana show. we'll get their takes after this. you watch this. the hammering that bp ceo tony hayward took on capitol hill. it's brutal. watch. >> that's what this committee is doing. it is an investigating committee and we expect you to cooperate with us. are you falg to cooperate with other investigators as well. they're going to have a hard time reaching conclusions if you stone wall them which is what we seem to be getting to day. >> i'm not stone walling. >> you are the ceo of the company. do you have any sort of technical expert who helps you with these things who might have been there? >> with respect, sir, we drill hundreds of wells a year around the world. >> i know that's what is scaring me right now. >> this is the picture of an oil pelican, our state bird in louisiana. i am going to keep this on my desk as long as we are battling this as a constant reminder of what is at stake. >> larry: all right, ben stein, what do you make of bp's actions here? >> well they obviously made some
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very, very serious mistakes. i have friends who are close to the high officials of bp, they said that bp people did not know what they would do if there was going to be a break in the oil well 5,000 feet below the surface of the ocean. they didn't have any plan of what to do about it to have drilled under those circumstances was extremely reckless. i'm not sure how much good it does to beat the crap out of him, if i may say that on tv, in front of a large nationwide audience. but maybe it will make mr. hayward work harder. i'm not sure what good it does the constitution of the united states for mr. obama, without any legal authority to seize $20 billion from the bp stockholders, i'm not sure if the pelican is more important than the constitution. frankly, i don't think it is. it is for sure that bp did some serious, serious mistakes here, serious. >> larry: stephany, what is your read? >> dupe we have to choose between the pelicans and the constitution, ben? you know? this was my favorite reality show i have seen lately, larry.
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i don't know, who except ben and representative joe barton, the republican of texas is defending bp. >> i wasn't defending them at all, stephanie, that is made up in your mind. you made that up. >> larry: we'll get to that. >> i understand. >> larry: your read on the hearing. >> who can defend bp. i don't know. clearly, larry, there are so many levels of liability here. maybe it was some what cathartic for the american people to watch this. they clearly, $20 billion is just a start. i think the president did a great job in starting there with that. >> larry: dana, did you learn anything today? >> i don't know what i learned except, grilling hayward and bp is a great distraction from this administration taking any responsibility at all of its own actions. sure, nobody is defending bp. bp messed up. but why make it worse by not doing anything for all most two months after the fact. people, this administration, not only sat on their hands, they
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sat on everybody else's hands too and prevented this, this catastrophe from being further contained. that's why we have a lot more of these oily pelicans. oh, yeah, absolutely. >> that's absolutely untrue. >> what? how are you even saying that? >> larry: hold it. stephanie. >> this isn't about speeches. what this its about is having a quick relief effort. did the obama administration do everything that it could, absolutely not. but they were thwarted at every attempt by bp. i think bp has to hold the lion's share of the blame here. at the same time the obama administration has to think not just what it is going to do at this moment but moving forward. i don't think having melodramatic hearings with oily pelicans in the air will make anything happen. the right and left used this as an opportunity for political theater and posturing for november. i don't want to see anymore. i want to see a long term strategy for preventing this and punishing bp. i don't know about legality of the constitution. what i know for sure. i disagree with ben. there has to be a way for bp to
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be held accountable for the vicious effects it is having on citizens and workers in the area. they have to be held accountable. >> i couldn't agree more. absolutely agree more. should be done under law. the president could have called the congress back into session asked them to pass a law for escrow fund. they would have didn't in 24 hours. >> larry: ben, ben, hold it. hold it. ben. >> stephanie. >> larry: ben, what did the president do that was unconstitutional? >> not sure he had constitutional authority to order a private company, especially a foreign one. >> larry: tell them or ask them. >> he shamed them into doing it. he threw his weight around. bullied them the way he bullied -- >> ben that's what politics is about. i don't think the president did anything illegal. he strong armed them. that's okay. i agree with you, ben, there should be a law in place that for future incidents we have a provision. the president didn't do anything wrong. >> the strong arming private citizens and private
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corporations is really not part of his sdwrjob. >> everyone was saying he isn't tough enough or bp. >> man you were saying that. i wasn't saying that. what i am saying. >> and -- >> larry: one at a time! dana, what did you want the president to do? >> i would have loved it if when we had the dutch offering help, two to three days after this s disaster. he would have taken them up on it. i would like to see immediate action. what we saw was finger pointing. the first goal was containing this mess. i agree with ben in what he was saying. we also need to figure out who exactly and what exactly caused this problem. we know a lot of the oil companies are involved in writing some of the regulations. i realize that. but i think bp and this administration share equal blame in awful this. this problem honestly did not need to be as big as it is. >> larry: why shouldn't the industry write its own
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regulations, dana? >> a really good question. i know that the american, api, they have said before that, well because we understand our industry. we should be doing this instead of mms, i don't necessarily agree with that. but the bottom line is this -- it didn't have to be as big as the it is. we didn't have to have all of these oily birds. >> larry: let me get a break and come back and talk about the aforementioned congressman from texas. don't go away. ♪
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>> larry: he later backtracked and apologized. gop congressman joe barton of texas created controversy early in today's hearing by apologizing to hayward. he called the $20 billion escrow account to compensate victims of the spill which president obama announced yesterday, a shakedown. watch. >> i am ashamed of what happened in the white house yesterday. i think it is a tragedy of the
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first proportion that a private corporation can be subjected to what i would characterize as a shakedown. in this case a $20 billion shakedown. >> no, this is not a shakedown of the company. this is -- the american government, president obama, ensuring that this company is made accountable. and sending a signal to all other companies that seek to treat ordinary american families in a way that can destroy their entire family's history. >> larry: in fairness many, many republicans also krilt sicritic barton. stephanie miller what did you make of it? >> stunning, larry, even seeing it again you shack yoke your hed say really, really you are going to defend bp on this. like i say, i don't think we have gotten to the levels of criminal liability that are
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going to be found in this. this was unprecedented, larry. look at "exxon valdez" and how many years it took people to be made whole and in some cases it didn't either because it was cut down by the supreme court. this president accomplished something unprecedented in voluntarily getting a company to do this before we even got into awful this. i would rather have a president, acting tough, smoke them out, dead or alive, mission accomplished doing this behind the scenes. >> larry: dana, you are not, are you -- do you agreen with congressman martin, dana? >> yes and no. >> larry: what is the yes part? >> the yes part is, look i agree bp should be financially responsible for the accident. it happened on their watch. no one is contesting that. i think the thing that a lot of people are forgetting, and i know i am going to just beat this dead horse. here it goes again. it did not have to be as catastrophic if we had had more immediate action on the part of this administration.
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these costs could have been capped. i know this administration loves capping things. so, we could have capped costs on this. had there been a quicker action. now i think that bp is definitely liable for the explosion, for skirting around a lot of these regulations definitely for the damage it caused. at some point you have to realize the continued damage of this wasn't -- wasn't so much caused by bp as it was also caused by the administration's inaction, immediate inaction. >> larry: ben, the public polls seemed to put the blame on bp, ben? >> i completely agree the blame is on bp. i have no question about that. bp, plus transocean which is operating the rig, plus halliburton which is operating some of the equipment on the rig, plus the operators on the rig some seem to have not acted properly. that's not an issue. i don't question that and liability will be enormous. whether or not stephanie miller knows there is criminal
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liability. i have my doults abobts about t. we should be abiding by the constitution. why didn't the president call congress into session, getting a law pass deed manned demanding w fund. nowhere in the constitution does it give the president the power to strong arm -- >> larry: can the president demand something? >> he can demand anything he wants. he can demand anything he wants. >> larry: could have refused? >> because public relations climate makes it impossible to refuse. he can shake them down. >> that's called capitalism. >> no, that's not capitalism. that's not capitalism. absolutely not capitalism. >> that is a big bully. >> larry: one at a time or no one is heard. mark? >> hayward did not get religion this morning or yesterday. companies don't act out of feeling, they act out of intere interest. that's why they did it. you always, love free market capitalism, let the market work
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these things out. reality is they were playing into the market when they made this decision. i agree, ben, the law should be imposed, yes. that does not mean the president did something unconstitutional by going to the court of public appeal and opinion. i'm happy he did. >> larry: sacramento, hello? sacramento, go ahead. >> caller: yeah, i'm tired of all this arguing back and forth about who didn't do what and whose point, it is too much politics. and i would look ike to know exactly, what are the options on getting this leak stopped. what can they come up with rather than saying it is the president's fault, it's the president's fault, it's the president's fault. thank you. >> larry: we don't have any experts. i don't think there is anyone who know house to stop it. >> that's the point. i am asking what dana means. is the president supposed to be aquaman? >> wasn't he marketed on being the messiah. no, no, no. >> the president responded with help from around the world.
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he refused it too. >> the dutch and norwegians offered premiere experts. >> they took their help. >> no they did not, stephanie. >> they did not. they turned it down. >> they offered it two to three days afterwards. just because you say they did. if the doesn't mean it happened. they offered it. awe thought would have solved this? they're here now, it is not solved? how would that have stopped it? >> larry: we'll break here, folks. we're going to get a break. and talk how this might affect the future of politics in this country. when and if. cone on, kiddo, let's go. hold on a second... come on up here, where your brothers sit. wow! chevy traverse. a consumers digest best buy, with a 100,000 mile, powertrain warranty.
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. >> larry: we have got a special event planned for monday night. a two-hour telethon, disaster in the gulf how you can help. bp is establishing a $20 billion fund to compensate those whose lives and livelihoods have been affected. but gulf residents need your help right now.
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your contributions will cut through the red tape and go right to the people and the wildlife suffering this very minute. we'll get your donations to them as fast as humanly possible. disaster in the gulf, how you can help. click in monday night, 8:00 to 10:00 eastern time. all right, panel, a new cnn opinion research poll taken after the president's speech the other night, 59% case prove of how the president is dealing with the disaster. mark, your comment? >> that is a bad sign. i think his speech actually helped things though. he seemed tough, he seemed resolute and offered concrete solutions. as weeks go on people will be more pleased with the avens -- performance if republicans fall on their face and bowing at the altar of bp. >> larry: why a bad reaction to what many thought was a pretty good speech? >> it was a good speech.
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a good campaign speech. the president has adopted his campaign mode of predecessor bill clinton ic. i would have liked to have heard, bringing in norwegian, dutch ships, people of the navy, people all over the world bring in scoopers and this concrete step. i don't like his appointing commissions and proposing energy legislation along with it. let's stop the spill and scoop it up right now. then we can debate energy legislation in the future. >> larry: stephanie, are you surprised at the poll results? >> i am, larry. but i also think it takes some time in the sense that, i have to say, the president often times, the rest of us are playing checkers and heap is playing chess. i think that this deal that was just announced is pretty huge. i mean it's pretty huge to get a private company to agree to this. it was not seized, as ben said. it was not forced. they agreed to it. and, you know, i think that's -- money talks. so, i don't think it is the best spich his life. but i think that this was really
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action. i think that speaks louder than words. >> larry: dana, how do you explain on this issue he has a lope rating but on, general public opinion he is slightly over 50% positive? >> oh, barely. i know the daily presidential tracking record has his negatives up pretty high. this poll, this cnn poll i am not surprised. i complete plea agree with what ben said. that there wasn't anything concrete. i would have been happy if he said, you know the two farmers that put the video on youtube where they sopped up the oil with hay. we're going to have them do that. i would have been happy. >> that says it all. >> one concrete step. a fantastic campaign speech. nobody can campaign like this man can. but we are past that right now. we need to see om action, not just promises. >> this is bigger than a campaign speech. he talked about burning oil. talked about commissions. talked about private/public partnerships. these are concrete steps. i think where he fell short is
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how he will provide concrete steps towards weaning us off fossil fuels. weaning us off of addiction to oil. eliminating not only deep water but also shallow water drilling. i think in terms of environmental issues he didn't go deep enough. in terms of stopping the oil spill in terms of moving forward and providing somekind of regulation for bp, i think he was clear and articulate about it in ways he hasn't been rather, on the campaign stump. >> the oil is not going to stop because of a regulation. the oil is going out because of forces of physics and laws of mechanics. he has the got to get the experts of the world working down there right now. >> that's what he is doing. >> it isn't about legislation. if they can scoop it up. >> it's not the laws of mechanics. >> regulation. >> larry: more with the panel after this. we'll be right back. let's get a break. don't go away.
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we're back. ben stein, bp isn't going to improve its pr until this spill stops, is it? >> they're working very hard on
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it. they buy a hell of a lot of newspaper ads. i think they will, when they stop the spill, scoop it up then they can say we have done something. but i mean their mistakes they have a heck of a deep hole to dig out of. i am not sure they will survive. they have done questionable things and should be blamed for it. >> larry: stephanie, are you surprise aid company this big, this worldwide could be so poor at the top in the relation of dealing with the public? >> well, you know, if they would stop spending so much money on p rcht, lar r and spend it on taking precautionary safety measures they should have. clearly they cut so many corners here. to get the oil out faster. that, you know their profit has been their only motive, obviously, up till now. and they had the worst safety record even before this disaster. so, no it is not a surprise to me. >> larry: dana, is it to you?
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forgetting politics, is it to you that this company failed in an area where companies shouldn't fail? >> no, i am -- nothing really surprises me with this anymore. honestly. and you know what i am actually going to shock you all. i agree with stephanie on this one point. they did cut a lot. skirted regulations i don't think anyone contests that. i also agree with ben. it is going to take so much for them to overcome this if they can overcome this. >> larry: marc lamont hill, t. boone pickens thinks this will go longer than they think. what if this goes into the elections? >> the obama administration has a huge problem on its hands. it has to be tougher, much more clear and downright punitive with bp to win public support. it is okay, not okay. it will be acceptable from vote tires support democrats if democrats appear to be having an articulate clear plan for fixing
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the problem. if they appear to be in the back pockets of corporations don't impose regulation or have a clear sign in terms of how they will develop technology to fix the problem. democrats will have a major loss. no matter how much this is an issue of republicans, democrats, public/private, the obama administration is the only group of people on the line in november. >> they would lose louisiana, mississippi, alabama anyway. do you think it really affects a lot of votes in new york or oregon? >> i think when you look at hearings like today and see the type of public performance and posturing from representatives around the nation even people who aren't affected voters care about the issues. voters want to know where their representatives stand on this. a lot of congressional elections. >> republicans have been the only ones defending bp. >> one. one. one. one defending bp. >> no, no, more than one is defending. people defended it as well. it is not whether democrats support bp it's whether democrats have solutions. if democrats don't have solutions. beating up on bp will get you
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two, three days of support. after that voters want to know what are we doing to fix the problems. >> larry: let me get a call from las vegas. hello, las vegas. go ahead. >> caller: hi, i am just wondering how are the people in the gulf of mexico going to know where the money is actually going? i mean? >> larry: well, we are going to do our telethon in our small humble way. direct it through united way and agencies you will know directly where it is going. you know, dana? do you know how they will do this $20 billion, dana? >> does anyone know. i am sure they will put it in a lock box. >> it will be run by ken feinberg. it itss a democratic party fund run by an avid democrat. a good guy and will do a good job. >> larry: ben, did you want them to appoint a republican? >> absolutely a republican appointed feinberg for 9/11 victims fund. a republican appointed a
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democrat. it would have been nice if obama appointed a republican it would have shown bipartisanship. the problem is terribly serious the should not be overwhelmed by a new problem. partisanship and politics and abandoning the constitution. let's get the spill filled and return to the constitution. >> the own one raising a partisan issue is you. >> that is not true. >> you pointed out he is a good guy. let it ride. you keep saying he abandoned the constitution. there is nothing unconstitutional about what he did. >> where in the constitution does it say he can do that, professor? where he can strong arm corporations into banking $20 billion? >> it is -- ben, are you serious? >> enumerated powers, not a document of unlimited powers, enumerated powers. >> what he did was, he appealed to the -- >> he brought beat him. >> he browbeat them. shamed them. he shamed them. >> bp understood that.
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>> no. >> lyndon johnson used to call in a senator and twist his arms and say if you don't vote. >> that's a senator. >> larry: you are going to lose your bridge. >> that is not a foreign company. >> that's a senator. that's within the government. this is a private company. >> this is a private foreign company. >> ben you, have been around washington a long time. are you honestly surprised or feigning indignation that a president might involve himself in matters with the private sector. >> not at all, professor. i think presidents jawbone all the time. it is standard politics. mr. nixon. mr. ford, did that. but a specific, gigantic, legislation piece. >> larry: all right, guys. all right. >> that was never done. >> larry: thanks. thanks. hoiltd, please. thanks to everyone for a spritely session. someone is going to die in a couple hours in utah. condemned man is hours away from being executed by a firing squad no less. the supreme court has denied his
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>> larry: the scheduled execution by firing squad of convicted murderer ronnie lee gardner is just hours away. right after midnight, utah time, five marksmen will point their rifles at a paper target placed over gardner's heart and fire on command. one of the rifles has a blank in it. so that the shooter won't know who the real shooter was. let's go to the latest from ted rollins who is at the utah state prison in draper. all appeals are done, right, ted? so where are we now? >> well, all of the appeals to the supreme court have come back and been denied. only thing left on the table is a nother request to the governor of the state of utah for a stay. he denied a request for a stay
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earlier in the day. that is the last thing. the last hope for ronnie gardner here as he gets closer to his execution time, right now he is an observation cell near the death chamber. he apparently has had a quiet day. the mood in the prison is somber. mood here is somber. no matter where you stand on the issue, larry having covered these before when you are getting close to an execution it is a pretty somber time. >> larry: and the firing squad is his choice, right, ted? >> yeah, he made this choice. utah is the only state that still offers this. they offered it, grand fathering it out, he was grandfathered in. he made this choice himself to die via firing squad rather than lethal injection. >> larry: randy, your brother is a convicted murderer. why after all this time should he live? >> well, you know, i don't personally believe in the death penalty. i don't think two wrongs make a
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right. you know, we fech oteach our ki to kill, you know, in the bible it says thou shall not kill, i don't think no one else has the a right to kill somebody else because someone else has killed them. it don't make sense to me. >> larry: randy, what do you think? >> obviously he is my dad. obviously i am not going to believe in it. but i also believe, you know, there is ten commandments, one is thou shall not kill. so what gives them a right just because you wear a badge that it is okay for you to murder? >> larry: i notice you mention he is a different man, randy, there was an historic case in new york, louie niser defended an inmate and proved he was not the same man when convicted. when was your brother convicted? >> he was convicted in 1985. >> larry: so he has been waiting
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25 years. >> just short of 25 years, uh-huh. >> larry: i spoke to your brother and your father last week. and we were supposed to do a phone interview from the prison to air the last night or tonight, the prison allocated and then took it away because they said safety reasons. i don't know whose safety they were talking about mine or his. do you have any idea, randy, why we weren't permitted to talk to your brother? >> no, it was the last-minute decision the we were actually visiting him last night the he was supposed to do something with you guys at 5:00. it was as big a surprise to him as it was to anybody, you know. i still think it's -- his first amendment right to speak. and i'm -- surprised he is not getting that right, that final right. but i have no idea why they decided not to. >> larry: andrew, you are his attorney, joining us now as well. why wasn't he allowed -- he
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agreed, they agreed, why did they change their mind about speaking to "larry king live?" >> i do not know. i was out here at the prison at about 4:30 when he was supposed to call you at 5:00 and was told they were not going to do that. i do not know why they decided to do that. >> larry: what great obstacle -- >> we had set that up. i don't know. i don't know the obstacle to having done that. >> larry: i can't figure it out. andrew, there's -- have you been in touch with the governor? >> we have sent a letter to the governor this morning requesting that he stay the matter. that was denied. this afternoon we sent another letter to the governor because he -- interamerican commission on human rights issued a -- a precautionary measure statement and the state department of the united states sent a letter to the governor asking him to impose a temporary stay.
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and we are asking the governor, again, that he stay this execution tonight. >> larry: do you have any hope for that? >> i, i have hope. i always have hope. i am an optimistic person. but i don't know whether it will happen. it should happen. >> larry: yeah. the woman whose boyfriend, ronnie gardner killed, and will be executed for, joins us next. she does not want him to die. don't go away. [ female announcer ] seafood from around the country... friends around a table... and an evening that brings them both together. during red lobster's american seafood celebration... from the south, try new wood-grilled lobster with bourbon-glazed shrimp and bacon-wrapped scallops.
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>> larry: don't forget we are on facebook, go to facebook.com/cnnlarryking. and like us. and a reminder about tomorrow, dr. jack kevorkian for the hour. let's check in with anderson and ac "360" what's the lateest? congress grills bp's tony
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hayward and doesn't get much in the way of answers. an internal document, seems to show that bp may have known that 60,000 barrels may have been gushing out of the well. tonight we will show it to you and tell you why it could be damning to bp. yet another example of bureaucracy getting in the way off taking the oil. all that and more at the top of the hour. >> larry: anderson will be part of our big teleknown monday night. michael burnell, a man she calls her soul mate was killed by ronnie gardner. it is the crime for which he is scheduled to be executed tonight. she joins us from phoenix. you do not favor this execution, donna, he killed your soul mate, why? >> michael was a gentle soul. and he loved people and he loved
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life. and he would not have wanted ronnie lee to be killed, especially in his name. his father also knew that about michael. and asked, please, to not execute him. we speak for michael saying michael would not have wanted the execution. i would not have wanted the ex-cushion. execution. and neither would ron tumu who went down and tried to give him mouth-to-mouth after he was shot even though ronnie lee had not been caught yet. trying to save his life. >> larry: have you contacted, ever spoken to ronnie lee? >> yes. he asked to speak to me last month. >> larry: what did you tell him? >> what did i tell him? >> larry: what did he tell you,
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what did you tell him? >> that's between us. but we each had, a, yeah, that was our conversation. and i felt really good about it. and it brought closure for me on a level that i needed. >> larry: this is a tough word, do you forgive him? >> i never judged him. i never blamed him for michael's death. i felt the loss. i felt the pain. i felt like i had run into a brick wall. but i never thought of it as ronnie lee's fault. even though ronnie lee -- donna, what, what were the circumstances how did ronnie come to kill your beloved? >> he was -- michael was doing a pro bono case in salt lake.
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and had won the case for this vietnam veteran. and had gone downstairs to file the paperwork. and that's when he was killed. >> larry: why was he killed? >> ronnie lee was trying to escape. he was there on another charge. another murder charge. and he was trying to escape. >> larry: so michael was a bystander? >> yes. yes. >> larry: what -- what a tragedy and your forgiveness or understanding of this is amazing. are you opposed to capital punishment in general? >> yes. yes. i don't think one killing -- killing, for being killed, it just keeps it going. the cycle going. i think that we as a human race
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are -- all the brilliant minds we have on this planet, we could come up maybe with something better. >> ronnie and his relatives say that after nearly 25 years in prison, he is a changed man, that he's totally reformed. do you believe that? >> well, speaking to him, i don't know if he's totally reformed. how would you know, you know? >> larry: yeah. >> but i feel like he has definitely reformed. >> larry: are you going to pay attention to the news a few hours from now? what are you going to do? are you going to be around the tv? >> i don't want to watch that circus. i don't care to watch the circus, no. >> larry: thank you, donna. you have our best. >> thank you so much.
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>> larry: this week's cnn hero is a tour guide from cambodia. she uses her tip money to transform the lives of rural children. survivor of the oppressive and ruthless regime has made it her mission to educate cambodia's poor by giving them what they need to go to school. $20 per child for an entire year. watc watch. >> in the countryside in cambodia, some children, they come to school, but not very regular. the school is free, but they don't have any money. how can they have the money for uniform and supplies? my name is ponheary ly. i got the children to go to school. i had one girl in the beginning.
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after that, 40 children and now 2,000. after several years, i see the change because they know how to read and write and they borrow the books from our library to read for their parents. i need them to have a good education to build their own family as well as to build their own country. >> larry: ponheary ly and her organization have helped more than 200,000 children get an education. how it changed one woman's life forever or to nominate someone you think is changing the world go to cnn.com/heroes. we are scheduled from the utah prison the relative of another victim. he wasn't killed, but he was shot by the suspect, who is no longer a suspect by the convicted man who will die in a few hours. that relative was supposed to be
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with us, but unfortunately couldn't get to the place in time. we'll wind things up with ted rowlands after this. my subaru saved my life. i won't ever forget that. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. that's why we created the tide "loads of hope" program,
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>> larry: on the phone with us, her late husband, nick kirk was shot and seriously wounded in ronnie lee gardner's botch ed escape. she is on the phone with us. you think ronnie gar did. ner should be executed. is that correct? >> caller: yes, i do. >> larry: why? >> caller: that was the sentence he was given when he went to court and so it should be carried out. >> larry: you don't believe that people change over time? >> caller: no, not somebody like that. if he was going to change, he would have changed 20 years ago or even ten years ago. >> larry: what did your late husband think? >> caller: he thought that he should be executed.
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i mean, he ruined his life and he kill ed two others and so he thought he should definitely be executed. >> larry: will you be paying attention to it? you're at the prison, so you're obviously going to be there when it happens, right? >> caller: yes, i am. i'm going to watch it. >> larry: you'll be a witness? >> caller: yes. >> larry: you have no qualms about that? >> caller: i kind of have butterflies in my stomach but i don't know how i'll feel. i don't think i'll feel too bad. >> larry: i understand completely. valdean kirk, she has to go in soon because she will be a witness as a victim. utah is the only state in the country that executes people by firing squad. here is ted rowlands, showing us how it happens. >> the firing squad will be using a .30 caliber rifle, each member with one .30 caliber in
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the chamber. we'll show you the impact of this. first we want to show you how far away gardner will be. he will not be far at all, sitting in a chair 20 feet away. take a look and see what that one bullet did this target. you can see a large hole in the middle there. gardner will have four bullets aimed directly into his heart. >> larry: now, ted, one bullet is a blank, right? >> yeah. and the reason for that is the fact that all of these five members of the firing squad, they won't know for sure if they, indeed, delivered a lethal bullet to another human being. and that protects them if they have any issues right away or down the line. if it haunts them it's sort of a safeguard just in case they do have problems with what they're doing. and they're killing, obviously, another human being tonight. >> larry: i talked to ronnie on the phone, didn't get into that. you talked to ronnie. do you know why he chose firing
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squad? >> reporter: i don't know. one of the victim family members thought that he did it for the sensational aspect of it, because he knew it was on the table, it was an option. lethal injection wouldn't have created the media interest, the interest worldwide really. by choosing that, he did sort of guarantee that he would be going out with the world watching, which might not have happened with lethal injection. that's what the victim families say. i don't know. he never has articulated that publicly. >> larry: we're almost out of time, ted. how could this not be a circus? >> reporter: well, yeah. we have poe terotesters down the and media from around the world obviously. we are being kept far away from the prison. it's all the way back down there. on the prison grounds, we're told it is very somber, it's in lockdown. all the prisoners have been in

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